tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post3716075058740268711..comments2023-09-10T00:54:55.369-07:00Comments on Fear an Iarthair: Christianity and Martial Arts: Sorting Through the Myths, Legends, Misunderstandings, Half-Truths, and Flat-Out LiesMan of the Westhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03691063580228409415noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-18128159711815741802009-06-28T11:07:10.730-07:002009-06-28T11:07:10.730-07:00How many different blogging identities have you cr...<i>How many different blogging identities have you created for yourself over the years?...Why would you ditch one blogging persona for another one?</i> <br /><br />I blogged for several years under my real name. For much of that time, I let the sarcasm flow pretty freely. I thought--and still think--that sarcasm is a legitimate rhetorical tool. However, toward the end of that particular blog, I had come to the conclusion that although sarcasm is a legitimate rhetorical tool, in my case, all I was doing was torquing off the people whose opinions I wanted to change. Perhaps this is not true of everyone, but it seems to me that even when I can flat-out destroy a person's position and drive it home with sarcasm, more often than not all I really succeed in doing is losing that person forever. They never come back, never listen to what I have to say again. This is not to say that I decided to soft-sell my opinions; I think you can see that I still say what I think. But the sarcasm wasn't working. Just made people mad.<br /><br />Then, several months ago, it became really apparent to me that I might have to change jobs. Not that my job is at risk, really, just that it's pretty clear that if I want to make another five grand a year (which is what it would take to accomplish my pitiful little financial goals), I'm going to have to do it somewhere else. And the thought of someone in a HR office googling my name and coming up with some of my more incendiary posts gave me pause.<br /><br />What to do? I thought about going back and trying to edit all the snark out of my old posts, but that would have been an enormous amount of work. Eventually, I decided to disappear for a while. I saved some of the best of my old material, with the intent of rewriting it so as not to unnecessarily offend people, and re-emerged as Man of the West some months later.<br /><br />I am sure that some people figure out who I am almost immediately. But it's not so easy to link my real name with my blogging anymore, at least not with a casual Googling, and that's all I was after. That, and an opportunity to blog with a little more focused direction and less snark.<br /><br />The rest you know. :)Man of the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691063580228409415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-77608121713316967372009-06-28T08:50:00.217-07:002009-06-28T08:50:00.217-07:00“you have to bear in mind that this is not my firs...“you have to bear in mind that this is not my first blogging incarnation”<br /><br />How many different blogging identities have you created for yourself over the years? I know this is off topic and all, but I find it really fascinating. Why would you ditch one blogging persona for another one? <br /><br /><br />“…there is all the difference in the world, though, between learning about something and being indoctrinated into something…”<br /><br />You have given me something to ponder here. I actually did a post a couple of years ago concerning my own children and what I should do about taking them to church or some other religious institution. I’m going to revisit this subject sometime soon. Thanks for the idea. <br /><br /><br />“Whereas I think that if you are focusing on something, then your mind is not empty. :)”<br /><br />Touché. <br /><br /><br />“I personally think that Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism are the work of the devil.”<br /><br />I know that I’m not going to change your mind, or probably even get you to re-think this opinion, so all I’m going to say is that this makes me quite sad. <br /><br /><br />“Dave, when you start out saying, "I know" and end up saying, "Who knows?", I have to think that maybe you're not really sure...” <br /><br />That’s my humility talking. I know that I’ve felt my inner energy, but I’m also humble enough to know that I could be wrong. I’m extremely skeptical when people are so certain about things that honestly cannot be proven or dis-proven. I know how I feel and believe, but I’m also intellectually honest enough to know that I don’t have all of the answers or information and thus that I could be wrong. <br /><br /><br />“Again, I appreciate your interest and comments. I know you disagree vigorously with many of my thoughts; I don't hold that against you.” <br /><br />The feeling is mutual. :o)Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951430008150125773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-6435229092670007262009-06-27T12:11:25.388-07:002009-06-27T12:11:25.388-07:00Part II
I think that it is possible to empty yo...Part II<br /><br /><i> I think that it is possible to empty your mind, if you are focusing on something.</i><br /><br />Whereas I think that if you are focusing on something, then your mind is not empty. :)<br /><br /><i>Do people really think this type of nonsense?</i><br /><br />That's why I wrote the post, Dave. <br /><br /><i>There are people who believe that things like yoga and tai chi and thus in turn religions like Hinduism (which is one of, if not the oldest religion still practiced in the world today), Buddhism, and Taoism are the work of the devil?</i> <br /><br />Of course there are. I personally think that Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism are the work of the devil. I would not put taijiquan into that class, obviously, nor Hatha Yoga (at least as I have read about it, but I have not read nearly as much about yoga as I have about martial arts), but--c'mon, Dave, seriously: was there any doubt in your mind before reading this post that I think religions other than faith in Jesus Christ are false? That I think a false religion is the work of the devil? I am sure that this is not really a shock to you.<br /><br /><i>I think that laying down a blanket accusations that these people are either liers or just performing cheap tricks is very disrespectful.</i><br /><br />Dave, I did qualify that statement, saying that many people do these things, "...<i>never realizing</i> that they are performing what is, at least for purposes of demonstrating ki, a cheap trick." I do not blame people who've been taught how to do tricks in the name of <i>ki</i> for thinking that ki really exists. But on the other hand, yes, there are a <i>lot</i> of liars in the martial arts. You just would <i>not</i> believe. The infamous "airport promotion" is only the beginning. <br /><br />There's more money in this stuff than you might think. And where there's money, there will be liars, charlatans, and crooks.<br /><br /><i>I know that I have personally felt my chi when meditating and practicing tai chi. Maybe I’m not feeling my chi, but instead maybe I’m feeling the touch of God. Who knows.</i><br /><br />Dave, when you start out saying, "I know" and end up saying, "Who knows?", I have to think that maybe you're not really sure...<br /><br /><i>You seem to be rationalizing so much here to fit around your Christian faith...</i><br /><br />Usually, that particular criticism comes from Christians determined to prove me wrong. :) I don't think I'm rationalizing; I think I'm explaining, in some detail, that it is possible to practice Asian martial arts without practicing or being indoctrinated into Asian religions, which is a concern that quite a few Christians have. <br /><br /><i>...and there is almost a fear of the possibility of influence from non-Christian religions.</i><br /><br />Again, I think that Christianity is objectively true and that where non-Christian religions deny its truth-claims, they are false. It is true that I don't particularly care to be influenced by false religions, but that can hardly come as a surprise.<br /><br />Again, I appreciate your interest and comments. I know you disagree vigorously with many of my thoughts; I don't hold that against you.Man of the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691063580228409415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-28003071081630766182009-06-27T12:10:07.986-07:002009-06-27T12:10:07.986-07:00Part I (Blogger's splitting up my comments, to...Part I (Blogger's splitting up my comments, too)<br /><br />Well, Dave, I'm sure you understand that whilst I was writing this post, I anticipated disagreement. It's not the first time I've blogged on the subject (you have to bear in mind that this is not my first blogging incarnation), and this will be, I flatly guarantee you, one of the best hit-generators I ever write. People are constantly googling for information on the subject, and most of what they find is ill-informed junk. As time goes on, I promise you, there will be comments accusing me of greasing the skis on people's descent into Hell, comments explaining to me in painstaking detail how little I really know about martial arts, comments telling me how little I know about Buddhism in general and Zen in particular, etc. You just happen to be first in line this time. :)<br /><br />I'm sure you will also understand that though I appreciate your comments, compliments, and interest, I cannot answer all the questions you raise this afternoon, at least not in detail. I am noting the things you bring up in what amounts to my "blogposts in process" file, and I will probably get around to some of them eventually. For now, I think I can get to the bottom of at least a few of them by dwelling a bit more on something that I said early on in the post:<br /><br /><i>I should also mention, for the non-Christians who will inevitably read this post, while no offense is intended, the reality is that I do think that Christianity is objectively true, and this post is written from that viewpoint. </i><br /><br />I'm sure you know enough about Christianity to know, Dave, to know that Christianity makes certain truth claims, and that if I say that Christianity is objectively true, then I am necessarily saying that religions that deny those truth-claims, either explicitly or implicitly, are necessarily false. This is an underlying assumption throughout the post and I am sure that it comes as no surprise. I understand that you don't agree, but you must bear in mind that this post was written not as an apologia for Christianity to non-believers, but as an apologia for martial arts to Christians. I will get around to publishing more posts dealing directly with Christian apologetics as time goes on, but this post was simply not intended for that purpose.<br /><br />A couple of other quick thoughts:<br /><br /><i>...what’s the harm in learning some eastern philosophy? In fact, if one’s faith is shaken by learning about another faith...</i><br /><br />I don't think I said anywhere in the post that a person shouldn't necessarily learn <i>about</i> another faith, though Christianity recognizes the concept of someone having <i>weak faith</i> that might make it just as well for him to avoid certain subjects and people until he is stronger. But I think throughout the post I have taken the position that simply being taught by someone with a different religion is not necessarily a problem; there is all the difference in the world, though, between <i>learning about</i> something and being <i>indoctrinated into</i> something, and it is the latter that I would counsel someone to avoid, at least when it comes to those weak in faith, or to children. Again, if Christianity is objectively true, then religions which deny its truth claims are necessarily false. That leads inescapably to the desire to avoid having people indoctrinated into--which, again, is different from learning about--those religions.Man of the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691063580228409415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-49112206103040886162009-06-27T10:04:48.763-07:002009-06-27T10:04:48.763-07:00Part 3 --
“I don't say that all martial artis...Part 3 -- <br />“I don't say that all martial artists who ascribe their feats to internal energy, to ki, are necessarily lying (though I'm sure some are). I'm sure that thousands of aikidoka have been taught and demonstrate the unbendable arm in perfect sincerity, never realizing that they are performing what is, at least for purposes of demonstrating ki, a cheap trick.”<br /><br />My former kung fu instructor was a master at the kung fu technique known as iron palm. I have personally seen him and others in our school take a stack of concrete slabs, slap them with their open hand, and break only the one on the bottom on the stack. Is there an explanation for this in physics? I’m sure there is. Did he believe in chi? Absolutely. I think that laying down a blanket accusations that these people are either liers or just performing cheap tricks is very disrespectful. I’m sure that some out there are charlatans, but the generalizations do nothing more than help to breed stereotypes. <br /><br /><br /><br />“What about people that say they can "feel" their ki, like one author that says he can feel a "pulse" of ki when he hits a pressure point with his finger? Personally, I don't think they are lying, not necessarily.” <br /><br />Well that’s good at least. I know that I have personally felt my chi when meditating and practicing tai chi. Maybe I’m not feeling my chi, but instead maybe I’m feeling the touch of God. Who knows. I know that the lady who wrote the book Fingerprints of God (her name escapes me at the moment) did a scientific study on the brain patterns of Buddhist monks while they were meditating and Franciscan nuns while they were praying, and she found that their brain activity was identical. To me that seems to show that they are both tapping into the same divine energy or spirit. Some folks call it God, some call it chi, some call it Tao, but maybe just maybe they are all talking about the same thing and just giving different names to it. <br /><br /><br />Okay…I’ve got to stop reading for today. While I may disagree with a lot of your post, I am enjoying it thoroughly and think you’ve done a very good job with it. My biggest overall impression of this piece is (so far at least) – and please don’t take offense to this because I mean absolutely no disrespect—that of rationalization. You seem to be rationalizing so much here to fit around your Christian faith and there is almost a fear of the possibility of influence from non-Christian religions. <br /><br />I will try finishing up the rest of the post today and provide some more comments tomorrow.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951430008150125773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-14268315768372714882009-06-27T10:02:05.901-07:002009-06-27T10:02:05.901-07:00Part 2 – (PS This may show up twice. If so I’m so...Part 2 – (PS This may show up twice. If so I’m sorry. The combination of my slow computer and Blogger’s peskiness is getting on my nerves today. Also I’m going to break this up into three comments.)<br /><br />“Ki is said to be akin to or identical to kundalini, the energy supposedly developed through yogic breathing, which is held to be demonic in nature.”<br /><br />MOTW say what?!? Who holds this to be demonic in nature? So let me get this straight. There are people who believe that things like yoga and tai chi and thus in turn religions like Hinduism (which is one of, if not the oldest religion still practiced in the world today), Buddhism, and Taoism are the work of the devil? (Note – Obviously you never said these things directly, I’m just making conclusions based on your statement. If I’m wrong, and lord please let me be wrong, then please let me know.)<br /><br /><br />“Those are serious charges, and if true, I agree that they would constitute ample reason for Christians to avoid martial arts.”<br /><br />Color me crazy, but those passages that you quoted sound like the ravings of a lunatic to me. <br /><br /><br />“For example, I distinctly recall reading an interview many years ago in which Jhoon Rhee, often regarded as the father of American Taekwon-do, said that he had never seen a valid example of ki.”<br /><br />I wonder if that though is because tal kwon do, as a martial art, doesn’t deal much with chi. Chi seems to be a huge part of kung fu, tai chi, and aikido but I don’t see much of its use in tae kwon do or general karate. I could of course be wrong. <br /><br /><br />“The second thing to understand is that the whole concept of ki arose in a pre-scientific culture…”<br /><br />As did Judaism… I’m just sayin’. <br /><br /><br />“However, there is a major problem in understanding ki in such a way, and this is it: there is no solid evidence that ki, in the internal-energy sense, exists... ” <br /><br />There’s no evidence that God exists either, yet millions of people (myself included) believe in God. You could be right and chi could not exist. Then again the atheists could be right and there could be no God. Or it’s possible that both God and chi exist. It’s also possible that chi is part of the divine spirit that flows through all of us (that is my personal theory).Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951430008150125773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-70716874937598607352009-06-27T09:57:35.693-07:002009-06-27T09:57:35.693-07:00Okay...it looks like my comment was too long for B...Okay...it looks like my comment was too long for Blogger. I'm going to break this up then. If I posted this multiple times, please forgive me MOTW and feel free to only publish one of the versions of the comments. <br /><br />Part 1 -- <br /><br />Well I’m back for more comments. I’ve just now had a chance to continue reading, So I will pick stuff out as I am going. <br /><br />“Occasionally, you may find that someone says he wants you to empty your conscious mind, which, in my experience, is not actually possible to do…”<br /><br />I’m actually going to disagree with you here. I think that it is possible to empty your mind, if you are focusing on something. This is the core basis of meditation in and of itself. In the meditation that I practice, I focus on my breathing and put everything else aside. Do I still get assailed by the random thought? You bet, but I make an effort to ignore it and refocus on my breathing. <br /><br />I think that meditation often gets a bad rap in Christian circles. Most Christians are completely ignorant of what meditation is (I know I was until I started reading about it and practicing it) and thus they think it is some Far East mumbo jumbo. <br /><br /><br />“The reality is that kata is not intended to have anything to do with revealing elements of Taoist philosophy… What they are intended to do is to serve as a mnemonic device, to help the practitioner remember and have some hope of practicing the endless techniques and variations common to the martial arts”<br /><br />This one to me is a no brainer. The purpose of a kata or form (as we called them in my kung fu school) is to remember the techniques. Nothing more. The only exception to this rule would be tai chi, but I’m not to your section on ki (i.e. chi) yet so I’ll wait to see what you have to say there. <br /><br /><br />“If you run across an instructor who really is determined to indoctrinate you or your child in Zen Buddhism, or if your child is young and impressionable, by all means, run the other direction and don't look back!”<br /><br />Okay, I’m going to admit that this statement really, really bothers me. You seem to be implying that these is something evil about Zen Buddhism and that it is something to fear and protect your children from. Why is that? How could learning about Zen Buddhism be a bad thing to anyone? <br /><br /><br /><br />“And I'll just mention, as a closing thought, that if you've heard that the physical movements themselves, that is, the punches, the kicks, or perhaps, the pattern of the moves, etc., will somehow open you up to demonic influences…”<br /><br />Do people really think this type of nonsense? Seriously, what could be “demonic” about anything in the martial art or in meditation or Far Eastern religions? That snacks of religious ignorance and intolerance to me.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951430008150125773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-5300995564007224472009-06-26T11:08:51.123-07:002009-06-26T11:08:51.123-07:00One last thought before I leave the blogosphere fo...One last thought before I leave the blogosphere for the afternoon: yes, TKD is popular in part because it markets to families, and many dojangs have become quite Americanized. But in my opinion, the biggest reason for its popularity is that it is so clearly a sport. People like games--and with TKD, they can fool themselves into thinking they are also learning some self-defense.<br /><br />I don't mean to say that all TKD teachers and organizations fall into this category--but an awful lot of 'em do.Man of the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691063580228409415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-76258220305726042552009-06-26T11:06:39.057-07:002009-06-26T11:06:39.057-07:00By now, you have probably read enough of the post ...By now, you have probably read enough of the post to have already answered some of the questions you have, most especially about people's concern with occult involvement. There are plenty of people out there who are utterly convinced that to participate in martial arts, you have to learn how to use <i>ki</i>, and that <i>ki</i> is demonic in origin. My hope is that some of those people will not be so easily fooled any more.<br /><br /><i>I have to ask though…what’s the harm in learning some eastern philosophy?</i><br /><br />Oh, one big, long, hairy post wasn't <i>enough</i> for you, eh? :)<br /><br />I'll probably get 'round to answering that one eventually, in one way or another. At any rate, it'll go onto my list of things to write about.Man of the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691063580228409415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377354642754058446.post-72152842592142451352009-06-26T08:15:05.107-07:002009-06-26T08:15:05.107-07:00I’ve just started reading this post (which I have ...I’ve just started reading this post (which I have been waiting for since you first mentioned it months ago) and haven’t gotten very far yet, but the following quote stood out to me and I figured I’d go ahead and comment on it now. <br /><br />The statement in question is – <br />“Many of these people are very concerned training in the martial arts might serve to indoctrinate themselves or their children into some Far Eastern religion or philosophy or lead to involvement in the occult.”<br /><br />The part that jumped out to me was the use of the word occult. In the US, the term occult is generally associated with the idea of devil worship or witchcraft. I decided to look up the word to see what it actually means. According to Dictionary.com the occult is defined as "of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies," "beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious," "secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated," and "hidden from view" (among others but they are basically the same as these). So based strictly on the definition of the word, I could see how American’s, and specifically American Christians, could relate the martial arts with the occult, but I suspect that when they use the word, they are using the connotation that implies devil worship. <br /><br />I guess the part that bothers me about people lumping the potential religious elements of the martial arts with the occult is that it gives such a negative connotation to the very legitimate religions of the Far East. <br /><br />My kids have recently started taking tae kwon do and one of the things that I have found interesting is how Americanized tae kwon do is compared to my other experiences in the martial arts. I actually discussed this with one of the masters at the academy and she said that it is in a way an extension of the Korean ability to adapt and that at some point the tae kwon do community realized that the key to success was opening the environment to families. It’s been a successful strategy that’s for sure (just look in any phone book and compare the number of tae kwon do schools to those of other martial arts). <br /><br />I have to ask though…what’s the harm in learning some eastern philosophy? In fact, if one’s faith is shaken by learning about another faith, then maybe one’s faith wasn’t that strong to begin with. Just a thought. <br /><br />Okay…I’m only a couple of paragraphs in to this post and I’ve already written up this big of a response. Back to reading. :o)Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951430008150125773noreply@blogger.com